Leonie interviews Michael Elsen-Rooney, reporter at Chalkbeat, about Mayor Mamdani's K12 education record after six months in office.
Chalkbeat, What’s Mamdani’s agenda for K-12 education in NYC? 6 months in, it’s hard to say, https://www.chalkbeat.org/newyork/2026/07/07/mamdani-education-agenda-after-six-months-as-mayor/
NY TImes, Mamdani Reverses Call to End Mayoral Control of Public Schools, https://www.nytimes.com/2025/12/31/nyregion/mamdani-nyc-public-schools-mayoral-control.html
Daily News, NYC public schools puts technology purchases on hold amid heated debate over AI policy, https://www.nydailynews.com/2026/07/08/nyc-public-schools-puts-technology-purchases-on-hold-amid-heated-debate-over-ai-policy/?share=cowc0wthmoidhobmelde
Daily News, NYC specialized high schools continue to offer few seats to Black and Hispanic students, https://www.nydailynews.com/2026/07/10/nyc-specialized-high-schools-few-black-hispanic-students/?share=0csowdynosdsiisneonc
Leonie Haimson, The Mayor’s cuts to class size funding; do they make sense? https://classsizematters.org/the-mayors-cuts-to-class-size-funding-do-they-make-sense/
Zohran Mamdani's responses to the NYC Kids PAC survey, https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bjazxfsUKHrtuNnQpkxW3OGFNJdRwPVD/view
David Bloomfield, Daily New oped: Troubles for Kamar Samuels & NYC schools, https://www.nydailynews.com/2026/07/12/troubles-for-kamar-samuels-nyc-schools/?share=mosoltmc0k0ouwds0mml
00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:53.000
Leonie Haimson: Hello, everyone. My name is Leonie Haimson. Welcome to our show, Talk Out of School, on WBAI Radio 99.5 FM and WBAI.org, where we focus on issues affecting public schools here in New York City, the state level, and nationally.
00:15:53.000 --> 00:16:11.000
Leonie Haimson: Our show's also available for download as a podcast. Tonight's guest is Michael Elson-Rooney, Chalkbeat reporter, who will talk about Mayor Mamdani's record on education six months in. What grade would you give the mayor? Call in at 212-209-2877.
00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:26.000
Leonie Haimson: That's 212-209-2877, and we'll take some calls soon. I rarely do this show live, so this is an opportunity for all of you to have your voice heard. Michael, thanks so much for being with us on Talk Out of School.
00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:29.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Great to be here, Leonie. Thanks for having me on.
00:16:29.000 --> 00:16:47.000
Leonie Haimson: So you wrote a piece for Chalkbeat last week about how the mayor has a rather thin resume on education so far. It's entitled, What's Mamdani's Agenda for K-12 Education in New York City? Six months in, it's hard to say. I'll put the link to the article in the resource section of the podcast.
00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:53.000
Leonie Haimson: But what moved you to write the article on the mayor's education record, and what did you find?
00:16:54.000 --> 00:17:10.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Yeah, so, you know, we've been curious about this ever since we started kind of watching Mamdani emerge as a candidate in this really kind of amazing way in this election. And, you know, I think a lot of people noted the fact that.
00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:27.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: education was not a big factor in the campaign, um, from really… from any of the candidates. I think at points, Cuomo tried to distinguish himself a little bit as, like, the one who had more education experience, but it just was not really one of the top.
00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:35.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: issues. But I think there was a lot of curiosity just given obviously what an important.
00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:50.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: role education plays in our city government. It's really the function that the mayor… like, the biggest function that the mayor has direct control of in the government, by the number of people involved, by the budget, um…
00:17:50.000 --> 00:18:08.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: And so, you know, I think there was a lot of curiosity about what a Mamdani education platform would look like. Would it be kind of as, you know, radical in some ways on challenging some of the established norms as his campaign was in other areas?
00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:14.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: And, you know, as we started to watch, I think we just noticed that it…
00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:21.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: it continued to really not be kind of coming to the forefront. And, you know, as journalists, we get…
00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:36.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: the press releases every day from the mayor, and, um, it is this kind of running record of what they're choosing to put out there publicly, and it was really striking just seeing press release after press release on his kind of core campaign issues.
00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:42.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Um, and not really in the same way on K-12 education, and so, um…
00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:57.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: I ended up kind of going back and doing an actual tally and found like I think it was 11 total press releases over the first six months about K to 12 education compared to it was like 30 plus about.
00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:00.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: childcare.
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:18.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: And, you know, even of those 11 press releases, there was really only one that was announcing, like, a substantive new policy about teaching and learning. So, you know, that's not a kind of perfect metric, but I do think it speaks to something.
00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:23.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: about what the mayor is choosing to prioritize.
00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:39.000
Leonie Haimson: Yeah, what's especially evident to me and perhaps others is the stark contrast between his multiple press conferences on early education, including pre-K, 3K, and 2K, compared to the lack of any that I noticed on grades K through high school on 2K.
00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:56.000
Leonie Haimson: Mamdani seemed to have a press conference every week. Now, of course, expanding 2K was one of his major campaign promises, but still, education doesn't stop at age two or even age four, and I don't honestly remember any previous mayor, and certainly no mayor since mayoral control.
00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:08.000
Leonie Haimson: was established more than 20 years ago, who seem to have so little interest in our public schools. Michael, you've been covering our public schools for a while. Do you think that's right, as far as you can tell?
00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:26.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Yeah, so, you know, I started covering New York City schools around the middle of the de Blasio administration, and so, you know, the only other mayor I've seen from his first six months is Eric Adams, and, you know, it did feel to me like there was more, kind of.
00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:32.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Just like a more kind of frequent.
00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:48.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Use of the mayor's platform at least to like kind of push some big policy agenda items, um, you know, there was the, the Adams kind of took on gifted and talented, um, basically their idea was to try to like try to expand it instead of.
00:20:48.000 --> 00:21:04.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Curtailing it, which was the kind of at the tail end of the de Blasio administration. So, you know, not the biggest initiative, but it did kind of put a stake in the ground a bit in terms of, like, what this administration was going to look like.
00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:15.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: You know, we saw, like, pretty early on the introduction of some of the dyslexia screening, which kind of gave you an indication that, you know, literacy was going to be a big.
00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:31.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: So these early months do kind of give you a push. And I think there's different ways to look at how important it is to come in guns blazing and introduce some big policy items quickly. I think there's pluses and minuses to that.
00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:41.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: But it does at least give you a bit of an indication as to where things are headed. And I don't think we've seen that, really from this situation.
00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:52.000
Leonie Haimson: Right. And I recall also Eric Adams having these community meetings where education always came up, and there were sometimes protests there, but he really wanted to wrap his.
00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:47.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Right.
00:21:52.000 --> 00:22:10.000
Leonie Haimson: mayoralty and his administration around the issue of education in a way that I think was also true of de Blasio and also certainly true of Bloomberg. Now, Mamdani, as you mentioned, was criticized for having a rather thin education agenda when he first ran for mayor.
00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:04.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Mm-hmm.
00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:27.000
Leonie Haimson: But the truth is, especially from our perspective, he was especially strong on two issues that many parents and advocates care a lot about, which were mayoral control and class size. On mayoral control, he was one of the very few candidates for that office who said.
00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:42.000
Leonie Haimson: during their campaign that they wanted to reform it to make it more democratic, more responsive to the community with more checks and balances. But the day before he took office on New Year's Eve, as a matter of fact, he reversed his position. Do you have any sense of why that happened?
00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:55.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Yeah, so, you know, I don't have, like, a really specific insider sense, but, um, my basic sense is, you know, I think there's an element to…
00:22:55.000 --> 00:23:04.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: just, like, the reality changes when you take office and, you know, take a look at the trade-offs of things. Um, you know, I think…
00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:09.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: It's certainly worth questioning, like, how…
00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:21.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: well-informed those positions were in the campaign, and how much thought had been, you know, put into those. I'm not sure how much background he had on those issues, honestly. I mean, he did vote for the…
00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:26.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Class size law. But, but, you know, I think the thing.
00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:27.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: that…
00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:42.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Sticks out to me the most is that it feels like another way in which he has really zeroed in on his key priorities and kind of whatever it takes to push those forward and my sense of.
00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:46.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: I think why mayoral control is that he realized how.
00:23:47.000 --> 00:23:58.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: how critical he felt it was going to be in terms of his kind of pushing 2K forward, given that that's a DOE program, and that, you know, it just would…
00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:12.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: create less friction for him to kind of push that forward as quickly as he wanted, um, you know, in the way that he wanted if he had mayoral control. Um, and, you know, class size…
00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:14.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: like, seems…
00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:26.000
Leonie Haimson: Well, let's get to class size in a second. I've heard that argument about 2K, and it was similar to, I guess, de Blasio with pre-K, but I object to that notion because…
00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:17.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Okay, okay. All right, all right.
00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:20.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Right.
00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:43.000
Leonie Haimson: If the mayor was willing to provide the money for 2K, I see no reason why any chancellor, any governance system would have rejected 2K, and the same with pre-K. Actually, pre-K started expanding before mayoral control under Rudy Crew when the state gave.
00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:58.000
Leonie Haimson: the city a bunch of money to expand pre-K. I don't buy that, though. I think that maybe it was part of the consideration and that he was convinced by the people around him who had been in the de Blasio administration at this point.
00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:53.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: And I…
00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:57.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Yes.
00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:00.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: I… I think he…
00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:02.000
Leonie Haimson: Was definitely going to make it easier for him.
00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:16.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: I think he took a lot of cues from the de Blasio people. I do think there are some interesting governance questions around 2K, because it runs out of the DOE, but the person Mamdani has put in charge of it does not work in the DOE, and so…
00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:06.000
Leonie Haimson: Yeah. Yeah.
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:20.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: There are some kind of real governance questions there.
00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:24.000
Leonie Haimson: Yeah, no, you're right. And the more…
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:40.000
Leonie Haimson: particular policies are run out of the DOE, the fewer checks and balances there are, because the City Council doesn't really have the authority to make law as they do under other agencies, and yet the DOE seems to be expanding its footprint.
00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:37.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Right.
00:25:40.000 --> 00:26:03.000
Leonie Haimson: all the time. On class size, during the campaign and the debates, Mamdani was very positive about the class size law, especially in contrast to Eric Adams and also Cuomo, and said he intended to do everything to comply with it and lower class size. Yet after he was elected, he did persuade the legislature to amend the law to give him two more years to comply.
00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:21.000
Leonie Haimson: One of his very few statements recently on this issue is that he's so happy that he could save $500 million, in his view, by doing so. Last month, his administration produced a draft document that purports to describe their class size plan as required by law.
00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:34.000
Leonie Haimson: But it's really nearly as vague as the so-called plans produced by the previous administration, especially when it comes to the hundreds of schools that do not have the space at their current enrollment. Michael, do you have any thoughts on that issue?
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:45.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Yeah, so, I mean, he's obviously taking over at a challenging time for class size implementation, I think.
00:26:45.000 --> 00:27:01.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: you know, the schools that have made progress so far are the ones where it was just easier to do that, because it was more a matter of just hiring teachers. Now is where the rubber really hits the road in terms of what choices do you make? Is it, you know.
00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:52.000
Leonie Haimson: Mm-hmm.
00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:17.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: do you find a way to build the space that they need, given all the kind of challenges around that, or do you, you know, look at other ways, um, limiting enrollment? And obviously, that's been kind of the third rail that no one has wanted to touch, and um…
00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:32.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: So it's not an easy position, but certainly it's a really big reversal from him in terms of the way he's kind of talked about the importance of urgency on this.
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:37.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: To me, it feels like, again, a matter of…
00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:52.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: You know, he had this budget deficit. It felt like a really big political imperative for him to balance this budget and still kind of maintain his core spending priorities in terms of, you know, childcare and other things.
00:27:53.000 --> 00:28:01.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: And other things just kind of fell by the wayside. And, you know, maybe he just made this kind of calculation that.
00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:07.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: In terms of his political aims and project, it was worth…
00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:09.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: You know.
00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:13.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Kind of prioritizing those core things, but…
00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:24.000
Leonie Haimson: Right, I understand that. I still think that they need a real plan. It is a very challenging thing to implement, and without a real plan, they're just never going to get there. And I just don't see evidence in the document that they put out that they have that such a plan.
00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:22.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Yep.
00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:24.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: And I think…
00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:40.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: You get the new mayor thing of it's easy to blame everything on the past administration. And we've seen a lot of that in terms of like, well, you know, Eric Adams messed this up and, but that wears off pretty quickly and, and then the ball's in your court.
00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:55.000
Leonie Haimson: Right. So, listeners, I do want you to call in. Do you have a comment on the mayor's record so far? If so, please call in at 212-209-2877. I hope people will call.
00:28:55.000 --> 00:29:14.000
Leonie Haimson: On Friday, another hot-button issue, the specialized high school admissions results were announced. Again, they were quite dismal as far as the admissions of Black and Hispanic students. Black students received only 3.5% of acceptances, and Hispanic students, 6.5%.
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:30.000
Leonie Haimson: Though these two groups make up about 62% of our New York City public school students. As a legislator, Mamdani was on record against using the specialized high school entrance exam as the sole consideration for admission to these high schools.
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:45.000
Leonie Haimson: Especially as New York City is the only district in the country that bases admissions to any high school upon a single test score. Yet he seemed to change his position during his campaign when he said he would instead support an independent analysis of these exams.
00:29:45.000 --> 00:30:03.000
Leonie Haimson: For racial and gender bias, something that's long overdue, we think, especially as both students of color and girls are admitted to these schools at far lower rates than boys. As far as you know, has the mayor or the DOE commissioned any such analysis or agreed to it, or do you think they will go ahead with such an analysis?
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:13.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Um, not as far as I know. Um, when we reached out to them about the, you know, racial…
00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:31.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: demographics in these latest results, they sent a statement saying that, you know, it was, um, let's see, they said, the mayor believes we must root out the deep racial and economic inequities that persist in our public school system, and our administration will be reviewing these results carefully.
00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:36.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: So that's what they said. And yeah, I mean.
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:39.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: You know, this is an issue, this is…
00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:49.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: the toughest issue for many mayors to take on, and, you know, even Eric Adams was, at one point, um…
00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:58.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: you know, on record, opposing the Shazad, and um… and reverse course on that, and you know, de Blasio certainly had his kind of…
00:30:58.000 --> 00:30:59.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Back and forth.
00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:01.000
Leonie Haimson: Eric Adams reversed course on what?
00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:08.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Um, on supporting the Shazad, I believe it was during…
00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:10.000
Leonie Haimson: So he was against us once upon a time?
00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:11.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:15.000
Leonie Haimson: Huh, I don't even remember that. I think he…
00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:16.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Yeah. It was during the campaign. Yeah.
00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:20.000
Leonie Haimson: I seem to remember he promised to expand the number of specialized high schools.
00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:22.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Right. There was some talk of that.
00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:24.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Um…
00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:31.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: They did open some new screened, non-specialized high schools, but, um…
00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:37.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: But, yeah, you know, I haven't heard of anything concrete, and of course, de Blasio…
00:31:37.000 --> 00:31:40.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Kind of late in his.
00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:51.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: tenure, launched this kind of ill-fated effort to lobby the state to overturn, you know, the law that codifies the exams.
00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:54.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: You know, I think there's a lot.
00:31:54.000 --> 00:32:01.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: That can be said about how that was rolled out and kind of the preparation. Yeah.
00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:02.000
Leonie Haimson: It was very late in the day. Let's put it that way.
00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:07.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Yeah, and it was basically dead on arrival.
00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:27.000
Leonie Haimson: Another point that can be made about the specialized high schools, which is rarely made in even good reporting on the issue, is that while the state requires that a single exam control admissions to three of these high schools, Bloomberg extended that to eight.
00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:32.000
Leonie Haimson: And the mayor could reverse that for five of them with just, you know…
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:31.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Mm-hmm.
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:48.000
Leonie Haimson: a snap of his fingers, so they love to blame the State law, but essentially they could start moving in the other direction if they wanted to, including Zoran. And I just wonder in a lot of these issues also the gifted and talented which I want to talk about now.
00:32:48.000 --> 00:33:07.000
Leonie Haimson: Um, he did make a promise, I think, during his campaign that he did not renounce, um, as of yet, I believe, but you can correct me if I'm wrong, um, that he wanted to end the program of having separate gifted classes for kids starting in kindergarten.
00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:26.000
Leonie Haimson: Um, these classes, too, tend to be very segregated, the entire program has questionable validity, and as you mentioned, at the very end of the de Blasio term in office, he pledged to eliminate those classes, but it was really too late. What has Mamdani or the Chancellor said or done about that particular issue?
00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:31.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Yeah, so we really haven't heard any update on this.
00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:41.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: It was an interesting little episode in the campaign. The Times ran a story, I think it was from their questionnaire, where they asked.
00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:43.000
Leonie Haimson: Which they never published that questionnaire, I don't think.
00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:55.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: And so they, you know, discovered that Mamdani had said he opposed having gifted programs start in kindergarten and ran it, and it turned into, like, a little…
00:33:55.000 --> 00:34:08.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: you know, news cycle that's reminiscent of the news cycles we've seen on this issue, where it sparks outrage, and then there's kind of some back and forth, and it always struck me, like, I wasn't sure how much.
00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:15.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: like, that was an intentional campaign position in the first place, even, or just kind of…
00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:23.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: an answer to a questionnaire that they weren't quite… that they hadn't, like, really fully thought through as a policy issue, and…
00:34:23.000 --> 00:34:26.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: You know, what I've wondered is, like.
00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:27.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: did…
00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:33.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Getting a taste of that kind of response and the backlash and seeing kind of what…
00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:41.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: a hornet's nest, some of these equity-related questions can be in K-12 education. Did that…
00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:55.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: like, dissuade him in some way from kind of wading into this, knowing that it might be an area where he has to burn some political capital if he really does want to push forward some of these more.
00:34:55.000 --> 00:35:01.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: you know, contentious equity-focused proposals, and just decided, like, it wasn't…
00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:10.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: it wasn't worth it, or he had to prioritize other things, and so I'm curious about that, and… because I think that's an area where…
00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:17.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: You know, a lot of people have thought maybe a mayor like Mamdani, a really progressive…
00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:20.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: democratic socialist would kind of…
00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:25.000
Leonie Haimson: Have the guts to follow through, maybe.
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:24.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Push the ball forward.
00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:27.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Whereas other people have not.
00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:42.000
Leonie Haimson: Yeah, well, what's notable about both the SHSAT issue, the specialized high school, and the gifted issue, is that at the same time, both he and his chancellor, Kamar Samuels, have both said that one of their top priorities is to integrate schools, right?
00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:53.000
Leonie Haimson: But so far, they've kept silent on how they intend to do that. And on those two issues where they might be able to make some progress, they have not followed through.
00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:54.000
Leonie Haimson: Umm.
00:35:54.000 --> 00:35:58.000
Leonie Haimson: There's also the issue of student privacy.
00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:21.000
Leonie Haimson: Especially artificial intelligence. On Mamdani's candidate survey that he submitted to New York City Kids PAC, he wrote that as mayor, he would go slow on AI, in contrast to Eric Adams, and would work closely with teacher, parent, and student groups to establish careful guardrails, quote, unquote, and move forward with any expansion only after careful deliberation.
00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:40.000
Leonie Haimson: But actually, the opposite seems to have happened. After he took office, the DOE under Chancellor Samuels actually sped up the implementation of AI, including installing Google Gemini on student devices and posting a draft AI guidance without any consultation with parents or students or teachers.
00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:50.000
Leonie Haimson: In fact, I was on an AI working group that was appointed by the previous chancellor, and we were told we were going to get input on that guidance before it was posted, and we did not.
00:36:50.000 --> 00:37:05.000
Leonie Haimson: Three times the PEP, the Panel for Educational Policy, voted down AI contracts, and yet the DOE forged ahead anyway, allowing schools to use these products. It was only when parents by the thousands and a majority of city council members asked for a moratorium.
00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:15.000
Leonie Haimson: did the chancellor appear to soften his position. Now, last week, he did email principals not to purchase any new software until further notice. Um…
00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:19.000
Leonie Haimson: Any thoughts on this, Michael?
00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:29.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Yeah, I mean, this is another really interesting kind of test case that's changing really quickly.
00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:34.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: You know, I remember not too long ago where it felt like.
00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:38.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: The biggest, kind of, pressure point on…
00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:44.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Districts was going to be this notion that, like, they were falling behind, and that they had to, like…
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:59.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: you know, get on the AI train because, um, it was changing the world and, you know, school districts were going to be stuck in the past and be dinosaurs if they didn't get on top of this. And that was kind of, like.
00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:13.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: you know, it's been interesting watching this whole seesaw, like, I covered the story back in 2023, when the DOE banned ChatGPT on… on, you know, network devices, and um…
00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:16.000
Leonie Haimson: That was under David Banks, Adams first.
00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:16.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: That was under David Banks.
00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:20.000
Leonie Haimson: Yeah, and then he reversed position pretty quick, right?
00:38:19.000 --> 00:38:30.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Right. But we were the first big school district to do that, and it got a ton of attention, and that's, like, still the story. It's, like, the most read story I've ever written, and… but, you know.
00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:35.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: And then he totally kind of became an AI, you know, like…
00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:48.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: early adopter and kind of promised that we would be on the leading edge of figuring out how to incorporate it.
00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:56.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: And that was kind of like where things left off when Mamdani took over and.
00:38:56.000 --> 00:39:03.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: And then, like, the past 6 months have really been kind of an amazing, just, like, reversal in the public…
00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:13.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: understanding and discourse about AI and, you know, that has very much translated to what happens just in the school system to the point now where, like.
00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:29.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: The much bigger, I think, pressure point on the DOE is how are we responding to parents who are really concerned about overuse of AI and technology? And so, you know, I think you heard the chancellor talk about this a little bit like it did feel like.
00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:33.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Kind of a whipsaw for him, um…
00:39:33.000 --> 00:39:45.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: you know, whether he should have seen that coming, or whatever, but, um… you know, I do think they've been responding to, like, a real change in how this is perceived, and, um…
00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:49.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: So I think you could, you know, if you're…
00:39:49.000 --> 00:39:52.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Kind of giving him the benefit of the doubt, say he is…
00:39:53.000 --> 00:40:00.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: trying to kind of listen and be responsive to what he sees as a real change in terms of.
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:04.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: like the priorities for the district.
00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:20.000
Leonie Haimson: And so far, the mayor has said nothing about it, which is kind of disappointing. I mean, maybe he's waiting to work something out with the chancellor on it that's agreeable to both of them.
00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:14.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Yes.
00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:22.000
Leonie Haimson: But it still seems like…
00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:28.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: And we still don't have an AI policy, whatever the reason is, and rules are suffering from that.
00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:27.000
Leonie Haimson: Right, right, no policy.
00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:31.000
Leonie Haimson: No policy and no, um…
00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:39.000
Leonie Haimson: No release of the stakeholder feedback survey, both of which were supposed to come out last month.
00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:42.000
Leonie Haimson: So, I'm hoping that they…
00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:54.000
Leonie Haimson: have figured out that they have to have a real policy that is really restrictive, because the research is overwhelming. I mean, even the guidance they put out said, uh, we don't have any…
00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:59.000
Leonie Haimson: answer anymore as to whether this is going to be helpful in education.
00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:12.000
Leonie Haimson: And to push a technology without any research support whatsoever and really a growing amount of research on the other side.
00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:17.000
Leonie Haimson: That is, you know, pretty, pretty, I think.
00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:18.000
Leonie Haimson: Risky.
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:19.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Mmm.
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:38.000
Leonie Haimson: And it doesn't say well about the people running the system, that they're willing to experiment on our kids in this way. So I do think we have a call on the other line. Um, caller, do you have a grade for our mayor? Some specific concerns on what he's done or hasn't done?
00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:40.000
Leonie Haimson: And where are you from?
00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:50.000
Caller: Thank you for taking my call. It's an honor, I love the show, and I'm in Flatbush. Um, you might hear my daughters in the back.
00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:54.000
Leonie Haimson: Could you speak up just a little bit?
00:41:53.000 --> 00:41:57.000
Caller: Okay, my middle name is George. I'm so sorry, can you hear me?
00:41:57.000 --> 00:42:01.000
Leonie Haimson: Yeah, but I have a little trouble hearing you, but just go ahead.
00:42:01.000 --> 00:42:09.000
Caller: Alright, I'm sorry, I'll talk… I'll talk as clearly and loudly as possible. I'm in Flatbush, I'm the daughter of Twin.
00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:15.000
Caller: Uh, 3-year-olds going on 4. Uh, 3K was a godsend.
00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:19.000
Caller: 2K seems a little bit young for me. I wish they would just pay parents…
00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:31.000
Caller: to keep, uh, you know, the kids home while they miss work. That, I think, would be more humane to me, but whatever, um…
00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:42.000
Caller: I think that screens entirely should be out, like, the laptops even, right? My understanding is the studies are that just learning in general.
00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:50.000
Caller: Low… is lowered by just having screens, um, present, and… and instead of notes and writing the old-fashioned way.
00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:51.000
Leonie Haimson: Right.
00:42:50.000 --> 00:43:04.000
Caller: And my last thing… I'm sorry to be all over the map, but my last thing is a question. My question is… my dim understanding, uh, because I'm just starting my journey with my kids in… in schools, is that…
00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:12.000
Caller: for… and I'm white, but my understanding is for black families that gifted and talented provided a de facto test prep.
00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:22.000
Caller: route that, you know, kids that don't have the resources to take endless amounts of test prep, they would get that in the Gifted and Talented program.
00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:27.000
Caller: What's your sense of that, that eliminating that would cut off.
00:43:27.000 --> 00:43:38.000
Caller: whatever stream there is, whatever trickle there is, to Stuyvesant and specialized high schools like that. I hope you could hear all of that. I really appreciate your work, and…
00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:40.000
WBAI Radio: Thank you.
00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:49.000
Leonie Haimson: First of all, one change that the previous administration did make with the gifted program, and please correct me if I'm wrong, Michael, is that they eliminated the test.
00:43:49.000 --> 00:43:51.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Correct.
00:43:49.000 --> 00:44:07.000
Leonie Haimson: So it used to be that they tested 4-year-olds, and there were a lot of expensive test prep companies that had sprung up in order to prepare 4-year-olds for that test. And I think it was during COVID, especially, it was easier to eliminate the test at that point, because nobody wanted to.
00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:20.000
Leonie Haimson: you know, uh, risk infecting little kids with COVID or whatever. Uh, but it never came back, and now it's supposedly based upon recommendations from teachers.
00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:35.000
Leonie Haimson: Which seems like maybe it would be a better route overall, but there are real questions about the value of gifted education, and there are studies showing that kids who are in gifted classes do know better later on in terms of their academic records.
00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:39.000
Leonie Haimson: or their achievements in life.
00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:55.000
Leonie Haimson: And that the whole notion of separating kids out by this elusive notion or quality called giftedness may not be the best way to go. Do you have anything else to add on that, Michael?
00:44:56.000 --> 00:45:06.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Yeah, and I think if I understood right, the caller was saying that he felt like G&T could be kind of a pathway to prepare kids for the ShSAT eventually.
00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:06.000
Leonie Haimson: Right.
00:45:09.000 --> 00:45:21.000
Leonie Haimson: Yeah, and I don't think there's much evidence for that in terms of academically accelerating the progress of kids, even those who are chosen early on for gifted programs.
00:45:21.000 --> 00:45:37.000
Leonie Haimson: But thank you for calling, caller. We really appreciate that, that you called in. Again, others, if you want to call, call us at 212-209-2877 if you have a view of the mayor's education record so far.
00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:42.000
Leonie Haimson: or any concerns about what he has or has not done.
00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:59.000
Leonie Haimson: On privacy is another issue that I'm very concerned about, and parents in general, I think, are concerned about. A scathing audit was released in May by the state controller showing how DOE had extremely weak, slipshod privacy policies and practices.
00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:16.000
Leonie Haimson: Many of them in violation of the state student privacy law, leading to hundreds of breaches over the last two years, and often the DOE missing the legal deadline for informing affected families of these breaches, which is important because once kids…
00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:31.000
Leonie Haimson: personal data is exposed, it's very easy for them to be the subject of identity theft. It's really important to get identity theft insurance and credit monitoring because kids…
00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:50.000
Leonie Haimson: identity for the purposes of identity theft is the most valuable, because they don't have negative credit ratings. And yet, the official response from the DOE seemed to be very dismissive, basically saying the controller had gotten their facts wrong, they had no need to strengthen their privacy practices, they were already doing everything right.
00:46:50.000 --> 00:47:00.000
Leonie Haimson: I thought that was a very unwise response myself, and the DOE really didn't have better answers during the recent hearings at the City Council. Do you have any thoughts on that?
00:47:01.000 --> 00:47:08.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Yeah, I mean, I'm not super in the weeds about this particular audit.
00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:14.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: You know, I think one of the general things that happens in the DOE is…
00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:27.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: just a lot of decisions get kind of pushed to the school level, and that was the thing I think we heard a lot in that council hearing, was that they just don't have the data on that, and you know, they… it seems like they're trying to…
00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:40.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: be a little more proactive now, like, they're surveying schools on what software programs they're using, but, you know, certainly you could argue why did it have to come to that point? And, um…
00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:55.000
Leonie Haimson: That was one of the things that the controller's office dinged them on that said they didn't have real knowledge of what programs were being used in schools, which really disadvantaged them when they had to react to breaches or even know that there were breaches, and they actually denied it.
00:47:55.000 --> 00:48:08.000
Leonie Haimson: to the controller report in their official response, and said that wasn't true. And yet, one week after that report came out, they did put out this survey, which they intimated they hadn't put, uh…
00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:06.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Right.
00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:13.000
Leonie Haimson: sent out a survey since 2022, four years before.
00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:13.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Yeah. Hmm.
00:48:13.000 --> 00:48:28.000
Leonie Haimson: So, that just shows, in my mind, a lack of responsible, um, stewardship of our… of kids' personal data in ways that are really unfortunate, and I think need to be addressed. Now, one of the issues that have come up.
00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:39.000
Leonie Haimson: from the City Council, in fact, but generally, even in a larger way, is DOE's contracting, which many people think is wasteful.
00:48:39.000 --> 00:49:00.000
Leonie Haimson: They spend billions of dollars on contracts. Some of them are unavoidable. For example, charter schools, which is something that is regulated by the state, not by the city. A lot of this special ed spending is also required in order to provide students with their mandated rights to different services.
00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:20.000
Leonie Haimson: But there is obviously a lot of contracting that is not needed. When he was running for office, Mamdani said, again, in response to the Kids PAC survey, as a first step, I would conduct an audit when entering office on all elements of DOE spending with the goal of rooting out inefficiencies, corruption, and fraud.
00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:35.000
Leonie Haimson: He also wrote that he would provide actual proposed contracts to the public before the vote of the Panel for Educational Policy and within a week of their request. And yet the DOE has not only refused to do that, they've even refused to provide.
00:49:35.000 --> 00:49:50.000
Leonie Haimson: approved contracts to the city council, and though they requested hundreds of them back in March, they have not provided yet a single approved contract to the city council to this day. I find this really shocking.
00:49:50.000 --> 00:49:56.000
Leonie Haimson: Because approved contracts are considered public documents in every other city agency.
00:49:56.000 --> 00:50:06.000
Leonie Haimson: do you have any thoughts on this? And also, can you go and briefly explain how the Chancellor himself has been… is being investigated on a contract issue?
00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:22.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Yeah, this is definitely becoming more of a kind of hot button issue now than I've seen in the past. And I think partly you're right because of the mayor's platform and now the way the council's pursuing this.
00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:28.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: And, you know, it even is kind of relevant to the… to the last…
00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:38.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: conversation we were just having about privacy, because I think the idea of the contracting system is that it's supposed to be this way for the DOE to vet.
00:50:38.000 --> 00:50:42.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: You know, these purchases that are gonna be…
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:54.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: in use at a lot of schools, and make sure that they're getting the best rate, and that the vendor's legit, and all that. But for lots of different reasons, that system's not really working as intended, and so a lot of…
00:50:54.000 --> 00:51:09.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: It's really hard to kind of get through that, through those hurdles to become a DOE vendor, and so there's not a lot of programs that are out there that are actually approved like that, and so schools are often.
00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:28.000
Leonie Haimson: Well, it's not really true. Can I just contradict you on this? Because by law, they have to post every contract with the vendor, or not the contract itself, but they have to post the name and a certain part of the privacy addendum for every vendor who has access to student personal information, and there are more than 700 of them.
00:51:11.000 --> 00:51:13.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Go ahead. Yeah.
00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:39.000
Leonie Haimson: posted on the DOE website as we speak. And yet, we know there are many, many others that are not posted, because we hear that these programs are being used in schools all the time.
00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:55.000
Leonie Haimson: It's not that a lot of these programs have not been approved. Maybe it's that they are slow to approve them. They're not vetting them properly, according to my view on privacy. The privacy agreements often are not…
00:51:55.000 --> 00:52:12.000
Leonie Haimson: compliant with state law, and we've seen lots of breaches, including breaches of over a million former and current students of their personal data. So, it's not that there's not contracting, it's that the contracting, however it's being done, is not being done.
00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:08.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Right. I guess what I'm saying is…
00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:30.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Well, I think that is certainly true, but I think what I hear from a lot of school leaders is that when they're looking for a certain type of program or purchase for whatever specific need, it's much more likely than not that they're not going to find what they're looking for among.
00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:40.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: the contracted vendors, and so a lot of schools end up kind of going out on their own, and this gets to a bit what happened with Chancellor Samuels, where.
00:52:40.000 --> 00:52:51.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: when he was superintendent, um, according to the SCI, the, you know, investigator who looks into the DOE, his deputy, um.
00:52:51.000 --> 00:53:00.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: signed a contract, just the district office with this company that provides language teachers. And the rule is that.
00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:07.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: you're only supposed to sign those contracts with a non-DOE-approved vendor for under $25,000.
00:53:07.000 --> 00:53:23.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Um, and so what happened in this case was that, basically, it seems like the deputy superintendent and the vendor agreed to split their $180,000 contract into multiple smaller purchase orders, um, to.
00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:29.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: to kind of, you know, get around that gap. So, um…
00:53:24.000 --> 00:53:28.000
Leonie Haimson: get around the requirement.
00:53:29.000 --> 00:53:36.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: What's under investigation now is whether Samuels was also kind of privy and like.
00:53:36.000 --> 00:53:39.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: reach that same arrangement with the vendor. Um…
00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:42.000
Leonie Haimson: Which he apparently did the year before.
00:53:41.000 --> 00:53:45.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Right. There are some documents that suggest he did.
00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:59.000
Leonie Haimson: But again, apparently millions of dollars of DOE contracts are separated into very small increments, and this has been going on for years, and there have been controller reports on this, so it's nothing new.
00:53:54.000 --> 00:53:55.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Yep.
00:53:59.000 --> 00:54:18.000
Leonie Haimson: in a sense, the chancellor, I think, is being targeted in a way that's somewhat unfair in this particular way, because it is an extremely common practice. It's not to be excused, but he's certainly far from the first person who's done this. Okay, so we have a couple of callers on the line, so I do want to give them the opportunity to speak.
00:54:18.000 --> 00:54:27.000
Leonie Haimson: Um, caller number one, do you want to say your name, where you're from, and what your… what grade you would give the mayor, or what your concerns are?
00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:37.000
Caller: Uh, Daryl McPherson, Bronx, New York. I'm unclear about the grades for the mayor, because I'm unclear as to what exactly…
00:54:37.000 --> 00:54:48.000
Caller: his part is other than governing the whole system. Um, what I'm more interested in is, A, what is the parent's.
00:54:48.000 --> 00:55:04.000
Caller: Uh, understanding of the information that you all are sharing, uh, what is the teacher reaction, and how are they participating and pushing back on some of this, especially the contracting.
00:55:05.000 --> 00:55:08.000
Caller: Uh, the money piece, and… and…
00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:14.000
Caller: Whether we like it or not.
00:55:14.000 --> 00:55:18.000
Caller: The… agents, the bots…
00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:24.000
Caller: The large language models.
00:55:26.000 --> 00:55:29.000
Caller: accumulating information.
00:55:29.000 --> 00:55:31.000
Caller: at a…
00:55:31.000 --> 00:55:33.000
Caller: Frightening rate.
00:55:33.000 --> 00:55:38.000
Caller: And if we are going to contend with that, both the…
00:55:39.000 --> 00:55:46.000
Caller: Both the accumulation of information, however more important than that.
00:55:46.000 --> 00:55:49.000
Caller: how that information is being used.
00:55:49.000 --> 00:55:53.000
Caller: Um, our children don't have a chance.
00:55:55.000 --> 00:56:01.000
Leonie Haimson: So… so your concern is that the… the… the AI…
00:56:01.000 --> 00:56:04.000
Leonie Haimson: This train is moving very, very fast.
00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:08.000
Leonie Haimson: And there's very little regulation happening.
00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:13.000
Leonie Haimson: And you are concerned about the possible negative impact on our kids, is that right?
00:56:14.000 --> 00:56:18.000
Caller: That's part of it. What I'm looking for is to take.
00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:28.000
Caller: that, uh, the negative model, and flip it, and make it into more Star Trek, uh, Star Trek, rather than Star Wars.
00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:31.000
Caller: In other words, we have the ability.
00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:36.000
Caller: to use these tools positively. Currently.
00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:44.000
Caller: from what I'm hearing from, uh, from you all, and from, uh… what's the woman's name for the fourth…
00:56:39.000 --> 00:56:41.000
Leonie Haimson: Yes.
00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:50.000
Caller: Um, okay, rather than wasting time with that, uh, the woman out of Philadelphia who first.
00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:52.000
Caller: Uh, talked about, uh…
00:56:53.000 --> 00:56:58.000
Caller: the, uh, fourth, uh, Industrial Revolution. Um…
00:56:57.000 --> 00:57:14.000
Leonie Haimson: Well, this is a little bit off topic. I think what we're concerned about is that there is potential in the use of generative AI in lots of different areas, including scientific discoveries, et cetera, et cetera. But right now, the research shows that it really undermines.
00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:32.000
Leonie Haimson: kids' cognitive development and their learning of skills and even their mental health. And so what we're talking about is taking account of that research and figuring out if AI is going to be used in our schools, how is it going to be used to enhance education?
00:57:32.000 --> 00:57:48.000
Leonie Haimson: rather than detract and undermine education. And so far, I don't think there are any easy answers. But thank you for your call. We really appreciate you do calling in. We have another caller on the line. Caller number two, could you say your name, where you're from, and what your…
00:57:48.000 --> 00:57:53.000
Leonie Haimson: What grade you would give the mayor, or what your concerns are about what he's done so far?
00:57:53.000 --> 00:58:02.000
Caller: Well, I'm concerned. Uh, I was told that the number of children that is getting this ADHD hyperactive.
00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:09.000
Caller: Saying that, uh, they're hyperactive and they have to take these medications has increased.
00:58:10.000 --> 00:58:13.000
Caller: Is it because there's a new diagnosis?
00:58:14.000 --> 00:58:22.000
Caller: The parents or the teachers say, well, this child is hyperactive, so we gotta put him on some type of medication.
00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:30.000
Leonie Haimson: Yeah, well, this is a controversial area. I think it's not just recently it's increased. I think over the last 20 years it's increased.
00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:33.000
Leonie Haimson: And one theory is that…
00:58:33.000 --> 00:58:40.000
Leonie Haimson: Kids' education, especially in the early grades, have become more heavily academic.
00:58:40.000 --> 00:58:46.000
Leonie Haimson: And there's more pressure on kids at an early age to learn how to read, to take tests.
00:58:46.000 --> 00:58:58.000
Leonie Haimson: to progress, um, academically in ways that were not demanded of them in previous generations. So that's one… one possible reason why the use of these, um.
00:58:58.000 --> 00:59:14.000
Leonie Haimson: The diagnosis of ADHD and the use of various medications to cope with it have increased, but that's a little bit off our topic, but it is a very important topic that I'd like to delve into more on another show, so thank you for calling in. I think it is very important.
00:59:14.000 --> 00:59:29.000
Leonie Haimson: Certainly, there's been a lot of criticism about the overuse of screens, and that's related with AI, that kids in New York City and elsewhere are put on computers in their classrooms at a very young age.
00:59:29.000 --> 00:59:46.000
Leonie Haimson: sometimes as young as kindergarten or first grade, and that that's leading to all sorts of behavior and mental health issues, a weakening of their ability to focus and be engaged in school, and that may be contributing as well to.
00:59:46.000 --> 00:59:58.000
Leonie Haimson: the diagnosis of ADHD, but that's really… it's been a long-term problem, and I think it's been increasing over the last 20 years or more. Michael, do you have any thoughts on that particular issue?
00:59:58.000 --> 01:00:03.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: No, I just learned some stuff from you, Leonie.
01:00:03.000 --> 01:00:07.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Yeah, no, not on that particular issue.
01:00:11.000 --> 01:00:27.000
Leonie Haimson: We've covered a lot of issues, but I still want more listeners to call in. If you are interested, have thoughts on these issues that we've been talking about, what grade would you give the mayor? Should he be paying more attention to K-12 education?
01:00:27.000 --> 01:00:44.000
Leonie Haimson: Or is it good that he not pay attention to these issues. I mean, Michael, you did interview a few people who thought that maybe it was good that he wasn't focusing so much on education in our schools at this point. You want to talk about their point of view?
01:00:46.000 --> 01:00:57.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Yeah, well, I'm not sure. I think some of them kind of disputed the premise a bit. And, you know, I think one argument is that.
01:00:58.000 --> 01:01:11.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: just because he hasn't kind of rolled out a bunch of, like, flashy new policies doesn't mean he's not focused on education, and I think this is partly the argument that the administration made, too, and that.
01:01:11.000 --> 01:01:18.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: you know, Kamar Samuels as a pick for Chancellor, like, what he was kind of known for within the DOE was…
01:01:18.000 --> 01:01:33.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: was, like, doing kind of parent and community engagement work, often around proposals to merge schools, um, and so you would expect him to kind of come in and take that approach somewhat, and I think he would say, like.
01:01:33.000 --> 01:01:49.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: He has shown some evidence in different ways that he is listening and being responsive. They reverse course actually on some proposals to merge and relocate schools on the Upper West Side.
01:01:51.000 --> 01:02:05.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: he has signaled that they're… that they're being responsive to some of the feedback on AI. We'll see what that looks like in the actual policy. Um, but that, you know, overall, their approach so far is to try to…
01:02:05.000 --> 01:02:16.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: kind of gather more information before they're coming out with, like, really concrete policy proposals. Um, so that's one argument. Um…
01:02:16.000 --> 01:02:19.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: You know, I also heard from…
01:02:20.000 --> 01:02:23.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Some people who made the point that like.
01:02:23.000 --> 01:02:40.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: you know, in some ways, you could argue that childcare work is also eventually a K-12 education policy, too, if you are kind of equalizing opportunities earlier on, um, getting more kids access to.
01:02:40.000 --> 01:02:51.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: you know, early childhood education that could, you know, bear fruit later on. and.
01:02:52.000 --> 01:03:04.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: And that, you know, so the one kind of substantive policy announcement that I referred to earlier was that.
01:03:04.000 --> 01:03:18.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: they're, in some ways, extending this NYC Reads and Solves program that started under Mayor Adams, in terms of mandating the use of certain curriculums for, um, literacy and math, um…
01:03:08.000 --> 01:03:10.000
Leonie Haimson: Right.
01:03:18.000 --> 01:03:33.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: One of the big changes with this, you know, Kamara Samuels version of it is that they're starting the math work now in elementary school, which hasn't happened before. The big push under Eric Adams is to start in high school. And so, you know, I think there is an argument that like.
01:03:33.000 --> 01:03:37.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: That could be potentially, um…
01:03:37.000 --> 01:03:50.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: you know, a new and maybe productive way to start the math work, um, because, you know, focusing on a 9th grade algebra is pretty late on in someone's… in a student's.
01:03:50.000 --> 01:03:53.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: educational journey. So…
01:03:52.000 --> 01:04:00.000
Leonie Haimson: And there were lots of criticisms of that math curriculum as well, that it had to be adjusted, and criticisms.
01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:05.000
Leonie Haimson: of some of the ELA curriculums is also that, um…
01:04:03.000 --> 01:04:04.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Mm-hmm.
01:04:05.000 --> 01:04:14.000
Leonie Haimson: I just wanted to mention in relation to that particular issue that Zoran was asked about.
01:04:14.000 --> 01:04:33.000
Leonie Haimson: contracting, one of the things he said, he said, in particular, "I would examine our contracts and processes around curriculum. We spend a massive amount of money outsourcing curriculum and professional development services, creating material that often does not align with teachers' needs or experiences."
01:04:33.000 --> 01:04:49.000
Leonie Haimson: And that's the kind of criticism I've heard from teachers themselves who say that at least some of these packaged commercial curriculums, both for literacy and math, do not give them the flexibility that they need in order to meet students' needs.
01:04:49.000 --> 01:04:54.000
Leonie Haimson: The most commonly used literacy curriculum.
01:04:54.000 --> 01:05:03.000
Leonie Haimson: HMH, I'm sure you've heard the critiques, do not leave any room or enough room for reading of whole books.
01:05:03.000 --> 01:05:10.000
Leonie Haimson: And it's very time-consuming, and there's been a lot of pushback against that particular curriculum as well.
01:05:12.000 --> 01:05:19.000
Leonie Haimson: the other thought I had about this is I've… I guess I've been in education advocacy so long, I've seen…
01:05:19.000 --> 01:05:34.000
Leonie Haimson: other administrations push a particular mandated curriculum and then drop it when it had no positive effect. That was very big in the early years under Michael Bloomberg and Joel Klein, is that they had mandated curriculums.
01:05:34.000 --> 01:05:48.000
Leonie Haimson: in the elementary schools for almost all schools, except for the most high-achieving schools. And it showed no positive results, and it was eventually dropped. So it's almost like…
01:05:48.000 --> 01:06:06.000
Leonie Haimson: And maybe this is unfair, and maybe you disagree, and others disagree, but it's almost like that's like a rote thing when new people come into office. We're going to mandate a certain curriculum, and that's going to improve outcomes, without looking really very carefully as to what the evidence is for that particular curriculum.
01:06:06.000 --> 01:06:21.000
Leonie Haimson: Early on, they did the teacher's college reading and writing curriculum, which is now heavily criticized as not working. Now they have a whole new raft of curriculums that they are pushing on schools.
01:06:21.000 --> 01:06:36.000
Leonie Haimson: I've looked at the research, and the research doesn't really exist for those either. I'm not convinced that this is a positive step on the part of this administration. Certainly, Mamdani didn't seem to think it was when he was running for office.
01:06:37.000 --> 01:06:52.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Yeah, I think it'll be interesting to see. I mean, you know, last year, like, there was some growth in the test scores, and, you know, the Adams administration claimed that as a big political win, and so…
01:06:52.000 --> 01:07:05.000
Leonie Haimson: They always do, by the way. That is a typical pattern. The growth in test scores was exactly the same amount as happened statewide, which did not adopt these curriculums.
01:07:03.000 --> 01:07:21.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Right, and there's lots of reasons why it… you can't even compare year over year anymore, because they keep changing the tests, and um… so, right, my point was, like, it's been… I think the political momentum has been on the side of keeping those reforms and expanding them, as long as, like.
01:07:21.000 --> 01:07:32.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: Test scores seem to be growing. And I think if that no longer is happening, it'll be a different political calculation.
01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:45.000
Leonie Haimson: I think we'll have to wait for the NAEP scores because I don't trust the state scores ever because they're never replicated on the NAEPs. But thank you so much, Michael Elson-Rooney for being with us tonight on Talk Out of School.
01:07:45.000 --> 01:08:00.000
Leonie Haimson: sharing your knowledge and reporting on the mayor and what he's done so far in six months. I hope maybe you could come back in another six months and we'll go over his record again and we'll have a little bit more evidence to draw on.
01:08:00.000 --> 01:08:04.000
Michael Elsen-Rooney: That sounds great. I'll talk to you then.
01:08:03.000 --> 01:08:18.000
Leonie Haimson: This is Leonie Haimson, host of Talk Out of School on WBAI 99.5 FM Pacifica Radio. Our show's available as a podcast if you missed the live version or want to recommend it to a friend. And if you go to simplecast.org, you can find more news.
01:08:18.000 --> 01:08:35.000
Leonie Haimson: and information on many of the issues we discussed on this show. Also, please become a member of WBAI or a special supporter of this show, Talk Out of School, by donating at wbai.org. There's no other show on the air that delves into the many issues and controversies.
01:08:35.000 --> 01:08:43.000
Leonie Haimson: affecting our public schools like this one. We will be back soon with another episode of Talk Out of School, and thanks so much for listening.